Carolina Triad Sailing

This all started when Phil Andrews sent out an email posing THE QUESTION.
If we were to build a new one design racing fleet in the Triad, what class would folks be willing to support?
I'm going to document the highlights of the emails that followed, so this will end up rather long. Hopefully this blog will provide an adequate forum for everyone to add comments and see what others have to say. I am working on a spreadsheet comparing the various classes that have been proposed. I hope to post it soon.
~Capt. Al (aka:Alan Taylor)
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I think we are the core group of folk seriously considering the purchase of a boat in a one design fleet. This is a really great amount of interest. I'm still hoping to get a better handle on what we all would like. What are the most important considerations to each of you in considering your new boat?

For now the boat with the most interest seems to be the Wayfarer. Next on the list would be Mutineer and Snipe. The Coronado 15, Precision 15 or 16, and DaySailor have been mentioned. I'm surprised there seems to be no interest in the Tanzer 16 or Windmill.

We seem to be looking at $2000 to $3000 for our entry level boat. I think the Wayfarer may be in the middle to higher end of that range and I'm thinking Snipes will be a little less than the Wayfarers for entry level boats.

I don't want to limit the choices yet unless some of you have found good buys on good boats you want. If we do have a favorite boat that makes the choice easy and all we have to do is find boats.

If you like a particular boat, please talk to folk who sail the boat or even sail the boat yourself, so we can have max input on our consensus. These are the current leaders:

Wayfarer: Class officer in LTYC, 2 boats at Townsend, 1 at Oak Hollow, looks like most comfortable choice, One local regatta with decent turnout. Spinnaker. Weak nationally

Mutineer: Inexpensive boat $1000 range, comfortable for a 15 foot boat, spinnaker, not as fast as other two boats. One regatta in VA usually per year with 10 or so boats. few boats,

Snipe: Extremely strong nationally, fast as Wayfarer, no spin, Regattas in Atlanta, Charleston, Wrightsville, $1400 boats available in Ill at the moment, lots of boats

What aspects are of high importance/medium importance/low importance/no importance

Price

Availability

Speed

Ease for sailing with novices

Comfort

National Pedigree(availability of boats and regattas)

Fit in garage

likelihood of having to repair after purchase

other...please list

Do we have a timeline that we would like to have? I'm hoping this Spring or early Summer would be good, but I'd also like to sail a boat or two by then.

Thanks,

Phil

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Phil,

Thanks for preparing this survey. Here are my thoughts and priorities for owning a second boat to be used specifically for one design racing:

After the purchase price, I don't want to end up with a "project" boat. I'm not that good with tools and repairs, so I will be looking for a boat that is ready to sail (doesn't require a lot of patch and repair work).

Secondly, I'm hoping for something easy to rig, trailer, and launch.

I'm hoping we select a model that isn't sluggish (I sailed the Harpoon with a 102 DPN, and I prefer something faster - handicap ratings of 95 and faster).

I am concerned about availability, but we'll just have to work hard to find some boats.

I don't want a "complicated" boat - would like to get some experience with a spinnaker, but I don't require one.

Those are my thoughts.
Thanks!
Paul

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Since I am one of those looking for a boat, allow me to express my opinion. First, I love the Flying Scot, and was excited to see that there was a vibrant fleet here at LTYC. It is one of the reasons I decided to join the club, and I hope to be a proud Scot owner one day.

However a Scot is not high on my priority list right now for a multitude of reasons including:

- Young Kids - My kids are 8 & 5, and I am excited they are interested in sailing. This boat I am searching for I plan on passing to them when I move up to a Scot. I feel they will be better served in a slightly smaller boat.

- Cost - I have had an eye out for a Scot for a while and it is my opinion that to get a competitive boat I will be spending more than I want to at this point in life for a boat. That is a great testimonial to the popularity and long-term prospects for the Scot, but it does not work for me

- Single handing - I still like to single handle a boat from time to time (get out on the water by myself and clear my head). A Scot is just a little too much for me and my current skill level

- Diversity - this might sound silly, but I believe we all become better sailors, and stewards of sailing, by having multiple types of boats out on the water and participating in club activities. I personally think we have a great thing at LTYC, and would like to see it grow. To do that we need to have more sailing options than Flying Scots (even if it is a great boat). I know once I have a boat picked out, it I look forward to inviting other members of the club out for a sail. I personally enjoy the experience of learning the unique characteristics of different boats.

Sorry for the long-winded email, but I felt it was important to note how important the Flying Scot fleet is to LTYC (and the southeast region in general), even if I am not looking for one right this moment.

Thanks and I hope to see everyone out on the water and at future club events.

Jon Mitchell

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Phil

I would like to get a feel for whatever boat i purchase bc this has really made a difference or me in the past. I will talk to Chris with OHSC who has a wayfarer and see if I can go out with him.

Whatever boat we decide, these things are important to me.....

1. Easy to sail, rig, an launch myself if needed

2. Having boat easy to sail with novice crew

3. A boat that is competitive to race (I have my wooden boat for leisurely sails)

4. Low maintenance. Don't have time or knowledge for a lot of work/upkeep

5. Reasonable price

6. Comfort is important (high boom, seats to accommodate myself and crew without being on our knees

I will investigate other boats you have listed and continue to search for available boats. Would also like to try to purchase for spring or summer if possible

Melissa

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Interesting discussion. I'll contribute my two cents - for what it's worth - because I agree with both points of view. We'd have a stronger club if we had more fleets that provided more options - especially for younger sailors with smaller budgets. The Scot is easy to rig and launch and can be easily sailed single handed; but something like a laser or sunfish that can be rigged and launched from the beach and is less cumbersome to store at home. Tom's description of the the durability and versatility is right on the mark. He's probably right about the cost too. For $2000-$4000 you can probably get a Scot that won't leak and has functional rigging, then you've got a great picnicking and swimming platform for the family and if you're into racing all the costly up-grades you could buy aren't worth a dime unless you've mastered sail trim and tactics.

John H.
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I know the Flying Scot tends to dominate around this part of the country. It is a great boat, but diversity makes for better competition. I am intrigued by the Wayfarer. It is a beautiful boat, just as fast, or faster than a Scot and can compete equally with many other classes. Has a spinnaker and all the racing go fast stuff I like. Most important, it still has a current manufacturer, it is light, easy to rig and store, and used ones generally will not break your bank account. They may be a bit harder to find used than other boats, but the classic lines and sailability will make finding one well worth the effort. Even at the Hot regatta there were seven or eight Wayfarers there and were a very competitive bunch. I believe they came in first overall! When I sell my big boat which is no longer being used, I am probably going to look for a Wayfarer as a second boat. My wife will kill me, but you gotta go sometime!!!!

Tom Bews

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For those just joining, a very good discussion has begun to consider the possibility of forming a new one-design fleet to sail at LTYC and OHSC.

This is investigative - Comments and thoughts are welcome. What would you be looking for in a two person dingy in the 16 foot range?

Would you be willing to buy a second boat (or sell your current boat) to support a new fleet in the area?

First I want to address the Flying Scot. Obviously the FS is the mainstay of LTYC and the success of the club is directly attributable to the success of the local fleet. The Scot is a great boat. There's a strong, competitive fleet at LTYC and CSC. There are lots of regional events within range for a weekend trip.

That said, the FS is not currently the boat for me. It's too heavy for my little car to tow. It doesn't have the high performance that I enjoy. I very well may own a FS at some point in the future, but not now.

I agree with the opinion that a sailing club is stronger with multiple one design fleets. The desire of this discussion as I see it is to find a common fleet for members that for whatever reason feel that the Scot is not right for them. We are not trying to take away from the Scot fleet, rather provide one-design racing for sailors in the area that are now either sailing handicap or not sailing because there isn't a fleet.

What happened to all the Lasers? Even with a 2 person performance fleet we should also have Lasers and/or Sunfish!

I'd love to see the Isotopes come back to LTYC.

Fleets that I'm aware of at CSC include Isotope, Thistle, Jet 14, Laser, Tanzer 16, Thistle, Buccaneer(aarrgg).

Based on some of the comments so far these are the criteria being considered:

Price
Availability
Speed
Ease for sailing with novices
Comfort
National Pedigree(availability of boats and regattas)
Fit in garage
likelihood of having to repair after purchase

1. Easy to sail, rig, an launch myself if needed

2. Having boat easy to sail with novice crew

3. A boat that is competitive to race

4. Low maintenance. Don't have time or knowledge for a lot of work/upkeep

5. Reasonable price

6. Comfort is important (high boom, seats to accommodate myself and crew without being on our knees

Boats that have been mentioned so far (plus a couple more):

Class LOA Rating Weight Est. Price
Wayfarer 16 91.6 365 $2500
Snipe 15 91.9 381 $2000
Tanzer 16 97.1 425 $1500
Precision 16 100.1 390 $1500
Mutineer 15 96.0 410 $1200
DaySailer 17 98.5 575 $2100
Coronado 15 91.9 385 $1600
Vanguard 15 90.5 190 $2500
Windmill 16 89.7 198 $2500

My thoughts:

I am not familiar enough with the Precision, Mutineer, or Tanzer to comment. Based on their ratings, they are on the slow side of this group.

DaySailer - I've sailed this boat quite a bit. Crewed for Del Foster back in the late 70's. My Dad owned one for a while before moving up to the Scot. The Day Sailer was a competitive fleet locally for a number of years. The DaySailer is a good all around boat but given the choice, I'd go with a Flying Scot in a heartbeat.

Coronado 15 - This is a decent boat. The NCSU Sailing Team had a fleet when I was there. I know that there have been some construction problems. There is an upgrade required to reinforce the mast step. In wind you will need to use the trapeze. Personally I don't like the way this boat sails. I've been trying for years to find the words to describe what it is. That's just my opinion.

Snipe - Good boat. Solid class association. There's a gazillion of them. Very very competitive nationally (worldwide). The closest active fleet is in Georgia. Personally I'd rather go with the Wayfarer.

Wayfarer - Jim let me race one of his boats earlier this summer. I like the boat. Very comfortable, easy to sail, and it is responsive. The Wayfarer has a spinnaker, which I consider a plus. There are 3 or 4 locally already and they have regional regattas. There are fleets in Florida, Rock Hall Md, and Canada. (Jim, correct me if I'm mistaken)

Vangard 15 - This boat is very strict one design. It is popular with the inter-collegiate racers. I raced the V15 in San Francisco. It's a good, fast boat. Very responsive. Easy to beach launch. About the only drawback is there's not much leg room (think laser). There's a fleet in Moorehead City.

Windmill - I've saved the best for last! As I own 2 Windmills and learned to sail on a Windmill with my Dad way back when I was a teenager, this is my first choice. There are competitive fiberglass Windmills available in the $2000-$3000 range. Wooden boats are competitive. Woodies are available between $500 and $2000, depending on whether or not they need work. The class recently resumed production of fiberglass boats, so more used boats will become available as current owners upgrade. The new boats are available for $10k - $12k complete with cover, trailer, sails and all the go-fasts. The 'Mill was designed by Clark Mills, who designed the Opti, as a transition boat for teenagers that had outgrown the Opti. It's a great boat for two teenagers, for a parent/child, for an adult couple, or just about anyone. The optimum crew weight is 300-350. The boat is responsive and a thrill on a plane. Weighing only 200 lbs it can be launched from the beach or even car-topped. There are active fleets in Rock Hall, Md, Florida, New York and Indiana/Ohio. The Windmill is one of the boats being used by the Sea Scouts at High Rock Lake. I think it would help attract fleet sailors if the juniors from Scouts could join the Windmill fleet at the local lakes. I often single-hand the Windmill. There are boats in the area. I think that if other boats start showing up, those that are hiding in garages will start to come out.

To address the criteria:

Price - $2000-$3000 - less if you are willing to do some work, more if you want new
Availability - yes - see listings on www.windmillclass.org
Speed - Fast and responsive in all wind conditions
Ease for sailing with novices - basic boat with main & jib. no spinnaker. originally designed for teenagers
Comfort - There are seats (thwarts) forward and aft. Sitting on the decks is comfortable as there's plenty of leg room.
National Pedigree(availability of boats and regattas) - Over 5700 boats built. Fleets nationwide. Regattas in MD and FL. The class will come to NC if we have a fleet (Mayors Cup or Gov Cup)
Fit in garage -yes
likelihood of having to repair after purchase - minimal maintenance, especially with fiberglass boats. In general a Windmill is a sturdy boat.

Here is a link I found on the Snipe site about fleet building. Thoughts worth pondering.

http://www.snipe.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=1

In summary, my choice for a new local one-design fleet would be either the Windmill or the Wayfarer.

Let's keep this dialog going. I value everyone's thoughts.

Thanks for taking time to read this missive.

Alan

Windmill Sailing_/)Just Plane Fun

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This was interesting info on the windmill......

http://windmillclass.myfleet.org/static/fontana.html

~Melissa

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Wow, that is the kind of response I'm hoping to get.

Glad you've had experience with so many of these boats. That will be very helpful to me and I expect others.

Random thoughts:

I enjoyed the Windmill alot. I enjoyed the people even more. The class isn't growing but it has attracted some top notch sailors like Ethan Bixby of world renowned sailing fame. (Also of North Sails St. Pete) The competition level escalated when he joined the class. I'm pretty sure he won the worlds in 505's, etc and still sails the Windmill. The Windmill did not seem comfortable for the crew unless they were shorter than 5'6", under 140# and agile. One former Oak Hollow sailor who eventually got an MC Scow was at least 200# and his wife crewed for him a couple years at least so I guess it can be done. You have to know how to enter a Mill from a dock if you don't want to swim. I didn't know the Sea Scouts were using Windmills. That adds extra interest for the Windmill. Gavin crewed for me at the Nationals when he was about 6.

I used to singlehand a Windmill occasionally but I often went swimming when I tried to jibe with the pole...I can capsize anything though as you've seen.

A better than average Snipe sailor said the Windmill was a better boat than the Snipe for him as far as handling characteristics downwind. The Windmill might be the most responsive boat I've ever sailed for feeling the effects of the adjustment you just made,right now, no matter what string you pulled or released.

My dad crewed for me in a Windmill back when he was about 64 (he was still playing basketball and softball at the time). On the way back in he pointed at a Scot and said "The next time you want me to sail with you, you'd better have one of those".

The Snipe looks a little more comfortable to me than the Mill although I've never sailed one. It is heavier so I assume it won't "oil can" with time like some older Mill's do. There is a wide age range in the Snipe class with lots of husband/wife, parent/child, grandparent/child combinations. Supposedly it is much easier than a Laser as we age. One Snipe sailor told me about sailing in 15+ against a guy in his 90's that was holding his own. The Snipe seems to still be attracting new blood.

I hope to sail the Wayfarer also. It seems the most comfortable boat although not quite as lively as the Snipe or Windmill. It still seems lively however and extra roomy for a boat of its length. The spinnaker might be overwhelming for a newbie, but could be sailed w/o until the rest of the fleet was up to speed on its use.

I think the Wayfarer and Windmill both have builders at present.

Lots of clubs have bigger boat owners frostbiting with an old laser as their second boat.

I'm hoping for one of the faster rated boats also.

Phil

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Most of the boats listed below take a smaller framed person to skipper/crew on them competetively. I am thinking guys/gals in the 140-160 lb range for a 16footer. Yes, there are larger people that sail well at times on these boats, but consistently, you have to fit the optimal weight limit of these boats. Sadly for most of us, we surpassed that weight limit in high school. If you are serious about performance, you have to consider this. It is physics. I have seen the drastic results just match racing/sailing in the MC Scow against a friend of mine who weighed 50lbs less. I could not catch or keep up with him(and he does not know about performance sailing). So if we are going to be realistic, and squeeze a 190-220lb skipper and a 160-180lb crew into one of these boats, you will do great in the heavy breeze that kicks up once a weekend in Greensboro.

But maybe we aren't that serious about performance, but comfort. As we get older, we get less agile, and some of these boats need agility. I have raced 420's, sunfish, Mc Scows, Yflyers, Buccaneers and keelboats. I prefer Scows because they are much more stable, crew-friendly and one of the fastest monohulls on the water. I know of a few Yflyers around the area but not sure they would come out of hiding. They have a very active National fleet but not much going on in our State. I sold my MC Scow because the local fleets dried up.

I bought a Buccaneer to get involved with a local fleet. They are inexpensive, Fast, and crew friendly. I told my crew we wouldn't add the spinnaker until I was top three at the windward mark consistently. They have a friendly local group that drew me in and I look forward to sailing with them in 2013. They are not that technical, and even have that comfortable bench seating of a Flying Scot, but much more horsepower.

Buccaneers anyone??

Bart Streb

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Bart,

Thanks for the email. While I agree that the 220/180 combo is a challenge in a performance dingy there are sailors on the 'larger side of life' (and older as well) that still sail competively.

But I would have to suggest that if you are of that size, perhaps you should consider the Scot.

I'm unfamiliar with scows. I think the MC or Y would be worth considering. You certainly impressed us at the HOT regatta. That boat IS Fast!

To my thinking, another consideration should be added to the list, that being attracting younger members.

We train a bunch of kids in the summer, but then they have no outlet to continue sailing. What about people in thier teens, 20's and 30's?

If the club is to thrive into the future, we need to attract these age groups. My judgement, the younger population would in general be more attracted to a performance boat.

Having never sailed a Buc (aarrgg) my impressions are: Being 18 feet long puts it in class with the Thistle, Flying Scot, Lightning. I judge the performance to be somewhere between the Thistle and Scot.

The Buc (aarrgg) sailors are indeed a fun and competive bunch and I enjoy both socializing with them as well as watching them race.

If I were looking for a bigger boat, the Buc (aarrgg) would be a consideration.

That said, let's add that to the mix. It's not yet time to emiminate options. I will publish a GoogleDocs Spreadsheet later tonight.

So we have these so far:

Class LOA Rating Weight Est. Price
Wayfarer 16 91.6 365 $2500
Snipe 15 91.9 381 $2000
Tanzer 16 97.1 425 $1500
Precision 16 100.1 390 $1500
Mutineer 15 96.0 410 $1200
DaySailer 17 98.5 575 $2100
Coronado 15 91.9 385 $1600
Vanguard 15 90.5 190 $2500
Windmill 16 89.7 198 $2500
Bucaneer 18
MC Scow
Y-Flyer

If we are going to be successfull building a new fleet we need to eventually reach concensus/compromise.

Alan

Windmill Sailing_/) Just Plane Fun

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An opinion from one who teaches classes and is asked what are the benefits of paying $60 to be a member.

Remember, the rental boats are in ok shape and no discount is offered to members to use them.

A nice private fleet of boats in the water and ready to sail by members would help broaden our membership with this nice additional benefit.

The Boston Community Sailing Club has a nice fleet of Mercury 14's, if I remember correctly. Not much different than our Capris......

David Craft

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I think the kids would sail if we reached their parents and convinced them that the kids would be watched and safe. (Besides we need the parents to participate.) Perhaps we need to find somebody to rig boats with the kids and race with them. Also, I think we need to keep the kids and the small boats out of the starting line and race area where the big boats are sailing.

When I was raising kids, weekends were for soccer, baseball, basketball, and other sports. Boat racing is not going to replace that, I don’t think. So, perhaps we need to have a junior regatta that sails in the evenings of summer during the week.

Just thoughts.

Christopher Maginnis

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Questions to consider when selecting a boat for a new fleet.

· Is this for local competition only? If not, then how many active fleets and how many invitationals exist within the driving range you are comfortable with.

· How quickly can you have a fleet of 5 active racers, not owners, on the water. A nucleus of 5 is really needed to grow a fleet.

· How many other classes of similar size already exist in your club and in the area. Most people will not give up “their” choice to join a new fleet.

This last point is critical. Just look at the CSC. We have fleets of Scots, Thistles, Buccaneers and Tanzers and none of them are getting growth or boats on the starting line. Too much competition for the same audience.

Comment: If there are boats available at really low prices it may be a fleet in decline and resale values will be low and the money you put into improvements will be difficult to recoup.

Full disclosure here: I am the Flying Scot district governor and a dealer for new and used Scots. There are active Scot fleets at Lake Norman YC, Lake Townsend YC, Carolina Sailing Club, Morehead/Beaufort YC, Lake Murray SC, VISA Smith Mountain Lake

I have owned 2 Scots prior to my current Scot and sold both for well more than I paid for them.

If interested in a used Scot please let me help you find one.

Sailor-Dave

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There was also some talk of looking to purchase a 'fleet' of used boats from a sailing school or college team.

This may be a good idea. I would suggest that those who participate in the fleet purchase do so as their personal boats. LTYC has also been discussing the pros and cons of owning a fleet for our training program, but that's another topic for another time.

Fair Winds to all,

Capt. Al

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Carolina Triad Sailing

Tuesday, November 27, 2012

Building a New One-Design Racing Fleet

One Design Fleet